Who finds this whole thing a bit, odd?

[Dontavius Roivas]

Im not saying its not who they say they are but we had the Shaun guy from Papercrane come on the forums now we have Matt Sconce on here, who are we going to have next maybe Dan Hauss? Or maybe B.Smith? I am not saying they arnt who they say they're but I just find it kinda strange that all of a sudden around the same time they jumped aboared the forums.
Thoughts?

[buzzemann]

I already wrote in the fallen thread:

for me looks as if they want to stop expose of a trick they haven´t released yet... and if it was exposed before they came out: it wouldn´t sell much copies ( at least none for any user here ).. .

I fid the fact, that they both came here so quick a little strange... but read in the thread what I wrote :)

I think it might be cool, if some more of the "big magicians" showed off here, that would make this forum even better :) they could teach and tell a lot :)

[Dontavius Roivas]

I already wrote in the fallen thread:

for me looks as if they want to stop expose of a trick they haven´t released yet... and if it was exposed before they came out: it wouldn´t sell much copies ( at least none for any user here ).. .

I fid the fact, that they both came here so quick a little strange... but read in the thread what I wrote :)

I think it might be cool, if some more of the "big magicians" showed off here, that would make this forum even better :) they could teach and tell a lot :)

Yeah as you said and what they said, he is trying to stop exposing a trick that hasnt been released yet, but thats impossible. There is always going to be people trying to figure how a certain trick is done, thats the point of magic trying to see how something is done. And if someone has a idea and its a public forum they have all rights to put down there thoughts on here. People will always try to figure out how something is done its natural, its human nature.

[MattSconce]

Im not saying its not who they say they are but we had the Shaun guy from Papercrane come on the forums now we have Matt Sconce on here, who are we going to have next maybe Dan Hauss? Or maybe B.Smith? I am not saying they arnt who they say they're but I just find it kinda strange that all of a sudden around the same time they jumped aboared the forums.
Thoughts?

Well it is not that odd. I work with Paper Crane (They are distributing my effect) and they told me there were people attempting to expose a trick I am counting on to help me feed my family. Why is it hard to imagine that I would want to come see who was stealing from me?

I think alot of people involved with exposure do not understand the impact they have. We do not sell that many DVDs when an effect is created. We do not make much money from the effects either. I think people assume we are making it big or getting rich. In reality, we are just everyday guys attempting to provide for our families.

Exposure is like someone walking into the accountant at my work and taking money from my paycheck before it gets to me, and for some reason thinking it is okay to do.

Well, I cannot let that happen. I have to provide for my little one and my wife. So, here I am, asking you not to steal from my family. It sad that I have to ask fellow magicians not to steal from other magicians but those are times we live in.

When you expose magic, you steal from real people like my wife, my baby, and I. I wish you the best, and thank you for listening to what I have to say.
http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v343/169/92/1035213530/n1035213530_180302_6992.jpg



Sincerely, Matt Sconce

[MattSconce]

There is always going to be people trying to figure how a certain trick is done, thats the point of magic trying to see how something is done.

The point of magic is to create a moment of wonder for your audience. It gives them a magical moment where anything seems possible. That is the point of magic.

As creators of effects, we create methods to give your audience these moments of wonder. We spend a lot of time doing so. It is the same thing as if you created a movie or new video game and started to sell it just to find out everyone was copying it and giving it to their friends for free. You would then be getting robbed as they did not do the work you did, but are still having your product. It is stealing no matter how you look at it.

Discussing magic effects is the least of what goes on here. When you see posts like "I can't wait until it is revealed", you understand the true purpose of the threads which are to expose people's hard work for free to people who did nothing to earn it. Which is called pirating, and stealing. When you pay for an effect you help the creator feed their family and keep working on the next effect. When you steal the effect, you make them re-think the entire idea of creating magic for people to create those magical moments.

Why should we create illusions when people do not give have the decency to give us even a small amount of respect for our hard work?

I hope that some of you have read my posts see that Magic is not about exposure, but about the element of wonder. I hope you see you are stealing from families, in my case a baby girl and a wonderful wife. Maybe some of you will rethink this road and support the magic community by buying the effects you want and working for the money to do so. Life is not free, and we all do not have a lot money, but we do have our honor and integrity. I wish you the best, and invite you to become member of our close knit and wonderful magic community. Help support us as we support you be releasing effects and Magic will grow to new heights.

-Sincerely, Matt Sconce and Family
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v343/169/92/1035213530/n1035213530_180306_8095.jpg

[buzzemann]

Why is it hard to imagine that I would want to come see who was stealing from me?

I think alot of people involved with exposure do not understand the impact they have. We do not sell that many DVDs when an effect is created. We do not make much money from the effects either. I think people assume we are making it big or getting rich. In reality, we are just everyday guys attempting to provide for our families.

Exposure is like someone walking into the accountant at my work and taking money from my paycheck before it gets to me, and for some reason thinking it is okay to do.

Well, I cannot let that happen. I have to provide for my little one and my wife. So, here I am, asking you not to steal from my family. It sad that I have to ask fellow magicians not to steal from other magicians but those are times we live in.


Why stealing ? how can you steal something that isn´t out yet ?

You think lot of people that expose do not not understand the impact they have ?
Well It is those people that make the magicians develop BETTER effects... without exposure, no one would develop new stuff, and improve good effects and Ideas.

It is clear, that you can not earn the big cash with a little effect ( well, actaully you could, if its good enough ), but if you don´t wanna have it revealed, then why sell it on the internet ? sell it, like it was in the good old days to real magicians, in real magicians fairys, meetings, settled magic dealers without webshop and magicians on shows... not on the internet where everybody cam buy and after that, reveal it.

it is not only exposure in magic: exposure is everywhere: whether it is the cheap rolex from the chinese market, the rebuild mercedes benz style car or copied sharpies for 10 cents... not only magicians have to deal with it... but exposure also helps to sort out bad stuff... If an effect is great and worth buying it, it can be exposed a thousand times and people nevertheless buy it...
Everybody knows what a m5 or raven ist, still they are sold good, because for the m5 the marketing works and the raven is just a fine thing... sure: many people build them othemselves: but enough people that really want it, nevertheless buy it... it´s like piracy on Movies: you can download a movie, but if it´s worth it, you will buy it if you are a real movie-fan, cause it is not the same...

[magick]

your effect isn't on the market yet.....so far there is nothing to steal.....

the guys are just speculating about possible methods for an effect they saw performed.

no one has stolen anything from you yet....

[MattSconce]

You just said that if I do not want my effect stolen, I should not put it out on the market, then you said exposure (the theft of another's idea) benefits magic. That argument is illogical and defeats itself.

You cannot justify stealing anothers idea and work by saying they deserved it for putting it out on the market. That is the same thing as saying someone deserved their car to be stolen because they parked it in their driveway, and that stealing cars benefits the car industry. It is just another lame justification for taking food from my, and other magic creator's, family. It makes no sense, is sadly mistaken, and hurts REAL people like me and my family. Is that what you want to do?

Do you shoplift and justify it the same way?

This is blind ignorance. Can't anyone out there see why this would hurt me and my family? I do not believe you all hide behind constructed arguments. I believe there are there some of you that will see my reasoning and help be the start of a change for the magic community.

Finally...Exposure does NOTHING to make us want to release more tricks. Why should it? What is your reasoning? Why would people stealing our ideas make us want to release more?

-Matt

[MattSconce]

your effect isn't on the market yet.....so far there is nothing to steal.....

the guys are just speculating about possible methods for an effect they saw performed.

no one has stolen anything from you yet....


Shall I name all the people that some people on this forum have stolen the methods from? Arguing that it has not happened to me yet is ridiculous when faced with how many people have been stolen from already. It is logical to address the issue first to avoid the same theft wouldn't you agree?
-Matt

[magick]

Shall I name all the people that some people on this forum have stolen the methods from? Arguing that it has not happened to me yet is ridiculous when faced with how many people have been stolen from already. It is logical to address the issue first to avoid the same theft wouldn't you agree?
-Matt

and now you have....you have addressed the issue....made your accusations....shown several pictures of your daughter to generate sympathy....

personally i agree with you....there are things i have exposed....but nothing you couldn't go to the library and learn from a book on the shelf.

i spend most of my time here preaching about, ways to improve you performance....patter, magics rich history.

i must say that there are things i learned thru web exposure...but then purchased before performing them professionally....everything in my act, i paid for, or created.

but still it seems you are putting the cart before the horse....i mean it's possible your effect sucks and you wont be able to give it away.

[buzzemann]

You just said that if I do not want my effect stolen, I should not put it out on the market, then you said exposure (the theft of another's idea) benefits magic. That argument is illogical and defeats itself.

No, It´s not: shows like the masked magician helped to develop and improve stuff and bring new effects... and puting on the market can be different thing: MASS Market, as you do, and the market where it should belong to: other magicians that upkeep the secret and use it in their professional performance: that is quite different than throwing a DVD on the internet.

You cannot justify stealing anothers idea and work by saying they deserved it for putting it out on the market. That is the same thing as saying someone deserved their car to be stolen because they parked it in their driveway, and that stealing cars benefits the car industry. It is just another lame justification for taking food from my, and other magic creator's, family. It makes no sense, is sadly mistaken, and hurts REAL people like me and my family. Is that what you want to do?

Do you shoplift and justify it the same way?

no, I do not shoplift and as enough people here said before: we are talking about an effect thaat is not yet on the market, so why shouldn´t we talk about our ideas ?
Gimme yur adress and I send you a care pckage if you only have that argument of stealing food... again: you are having a problem that people talk about sth. you created and not even released ?



Finally...Exposure does NOTHING to make us want to release more tricks. Why should it? What is your reasoning? Why would people stealing our ideas make us want to release more?

Because you would love as a passion to create new, better things ? because you would like to perform stuff you invented, nobody else has and that is a reputation maker for you to get you the chance of earning more money with a gig because you are unique ?
there are many reasons, and as magick already said: you can get tons of tricks from old books... so far, we are clear it is not blowing or breathing... but I bet: if I bought your DVD ( which I am thinking of doing just that you feel better and can feed your family... ) I would find the effect in at least 5 old magic books that are collecting dust in my closet.

[MattSconce]

and now you have....you have addressed the issue....made your accusations....shown several pictures of your daughter to generate sympathy....

personally i agree with you....there are things i have exposed....but nothing you couldn't go to the library and learn from a book on the shelf.

i spend most of my time here preaching about, ways to improve you performance....patter, magics rich history.

i must say that there are things i learned thru web exposure...but then purchased before performing them professionally....everything in my act, i paid for, or created.

but still it seems you are putting the cart before the horse....i mean it's possible your effect sucks and you wont be able to give it away.



I respect you for the fact you paid for the things in your act. I checked you out through your myspace and think you are a valuable member of this community and they are lucky to have you.

Forget my effect for a moment. The exposure I see now days makes me sad. It hurts REAL people. The reason I posted pictures of myself and daughter was to hopefully drive home the point that there are real faces behind these illusions. REAL people who lose the ability to buy the food they need when people steal from them. As a magician yourself who has some great things going for him, don't you agree?

-Matt Sconce

[MattSconce]

No, It´s not: shows like the masked magician helped to develop and improve stuff and bring new effects...

I disagree. Shows like the masked magicians helped people start to "Lose the wonder" in magic and simply try to dissect it like a puzzle.

I see where your coming from, and I appreciate the offer of a care package. But there are many more magicians than myself who are struggling. We do not need a handout, we need people to purchase an effect we make if they like the effect and desire to perform it.

Method does not matter as long as it is devious and simple. It is all about the effect and EFFECT can be seen without exposure.

-Matt

[MattSconce]

Well, off I go to do the day job! I appreciate all of the comments and discussion on the topic and hope you all enjoy Power Word: Fall, and help stop exposure for all of us in the future. Sincerely, Matt Sconce

[buzzemann]

Have a nice day and lots of success !

[magic123]

when it does come out some one will buy it and reveal it to us. I don't know how you can stop the person(s) from revealing it.

[Dontavius Roivas]

We all get what you're saying but NO ONE not ANYBODY here has stole from you at all, and posting pictures with your daughter, is that you trying to make us feel bad, look man we didnt steal nothing from you we're just throwing around ideas on how its done, there has been piracy here before but we stopped it, we do NOT support piracy or anything in that area on this site, and if one of us did say how the effect is done Im sorry but sometimes are minds can figure out the methods and again your effect is not even availible yet.....

[sonny]

Aww look at the little poor man .... he has to post pics of his little wittle baby waby aww..


Would you like me you give you a bottle?

[MattSconce]

If you read all of my posts, you would see I am not attempting to claim you have exposed my illusion. I am saying that this forum prides itself on revealing magician's hard work (Intellectual property, some of it copyrighted) for free to people, robbing the creator of the reward for their hard work. That is exposure and piracy of intellectual property, as many magicians will then MAKE MONEY by using the illusion they took without paying for.

I think that is bad for the magic community. The reason I posted the pictures is sometimes, people think they are stealing from some unknown "Big" entity and that it does not matter, but in the magic world, we are all little guys trying to help the community while also making a buck to justify it. I wanted to show people we are just people trying to earn a living with families that depend on us to do so.


How does piracy of ideas hurt us? Here is how. Say there are 20 people on the site that read a revealed and exposed method. They usually will then not purchase the effect. They will in turn tell others the method and some of them may post youtube videos showing how they are done. This could reach 100s and thousands of potential buyers, maybe more. This could cut total sales IN HALF. People are then getting ideas someone came up with for free, the creator is getting screwed, his family does not have the money they could have because people felt like exposing an effect. That is what I am saying. Do you see where I am coming from?

-Matt Sconce

[Dontavius Roivas]

If you read all of my posts, you would see I am not attempting to claim you have exposed my illusion. I am saying that this forum prides itself on revealing magician's hard work (Intellectual property, some of it copyrighted) for free to people, robbing the creator of the reward for their hard work. That is exposure and piracy of intellectual property, as many magicians will then MAKE MONEY by using the illusion they took without paying for.

I think that is bad for the magic community. The reason I posted the pictures is sometimes, people think they are stealing from some unknown "Big" entity and that it does not matter, but in the magic world, we are all little guys trying to help the community while also making a buck to justify it. I wanted to show people we are just people trying to earn a living with families that depend on us to do so.


How does piracy of ideas hurt us? Here is how. Say there are 20 people on the site that read a revealed and exposed method. They usually will then not purchase the effect. They will in turn tell others the method and some of them may post youtube videos showing how they are done. This could reach 100s and thousands of potential buyers, maybe more. This could cut total sales IN HALF. People are then getting ideas someone came up with for free, the creator is getting screwed, his family does not have the money they could have because people felt like exposing an effect. That is what I am saying. Do you see where I am coming from?

-Matt Sconce

Look man, no one can say that have actully invented a trick. Think about it, lets say someone did a double lift alright? Someone cant go around saying they invented the double lift, you cant say "hey! I picked up two cards at once before you did!" anyone can say they invented a trick but did they really? Someone could and can have always came up with the idea of a trick before "you" did, ( you as the seller of a trick ), also such as palming card tricks, you cant say you invented a card to wallet where you palmed the spectators card and you bring it to your wallet because ANYONE could have done it before you, you cant OWNN a trick, and why are you so into money and sales with magic? Isnt magic sopose to be for entertainment and Astonishment , its for someone to enjoy not to hog money around

[Dontavius Roivas]

it is,but magic is all about people,and magicians do want there work to be shared with others. But if everyone could get their hands on it then it wouldn't be anything special because everyone knows it.
So in protecting and sharing a secret you can make some money. that sounds reasonable i think it sounds fair, don't you think it sounds fair as well. To me it all makes sense

Yeah I do agree with that but this guy just jumped in saying dont expose my magic, I mean thats not really fair we didnt do anything to him, and how can we expose something that isnt even out yet? And him just throwing his pictures of him and his daughter trying to make us feel bad just shows how low this guy will go. I agree with him but he wont change a thing, someone will end up buying it then revealing it for free that will end up happening and he cant change that.

[buzzemann]

well, at least it brought back life in this forum: look how many people discuss this thread and the other one ;) the last days and week it was not very much going on here :)

[Dontavius Roivas]

ya its good to bring a little life back,but on the other point. I guess sometimes there is a line between if this is good or if we shouldn't do this So exposure is wrong to some and others thing exposure is not wrong. So that line i think we should leave this trick alone because we've seen the impact. Because even if we're wrong people still won't purchase the illuion, and it'll cause decreased money for families like his. These people we are finding aren't gods.

Good luck in the polls Obama, Im wishing you my best!
Yeah this brought life to the forums, it was so quite. So many people have been gone, like where has Traum been?

[MattSconce]

I appreciate all of you sharing your points of view. I think discussion bring knowledge and new understanding in situations like this.

If my trick had never been talked about or released, and I had found this site, I would have still felt the same way about exposure. Those of you championing telling people's secrets they have wroked hard on have obviously never been at the other end of stick. It is hard to see you hard work stolen, and people blame and criticize you for them stealing your ideas.

The purpose of showing my baby WAS to make you FEEL something. The truth is, that despite the fact some of you claim exposure is okay, it actually hurts real people trying to make a living. Magic is to create wonder, but if a trick is created (Yes you can create a trick as people throughout history have shown is true), then you should have a right to use your creation to not only, provide enjoyment to people but provide income for your family to further the pursuit of the next illusion, and the next after that.

Creators probably stay away from exposure sites (Which right now this one is) because it is hard to see all the hours of work and years of their life trampled upon by people who seem to not care, and sometimes to be heartless.

I have been insulted already and mocked, but you know what? Magic is worth it. I believe in a world where people respect each other and will decide to protect there brother and sister magicians instead of expose them to a world of people seeking to use them for their next "Secret fix". it can happen and you can help it happen simply by deciding to.:)
-Matt Sconce

[citrusjrb]

I appreciate all of you sharing your points of view. I think discussion bring knowledge and new understanding in situations like this.

If my trick had never been talked about or released, and I had found this site, I would have still felt the same way about exposure. Those of you championing telling people's secrets they have wroked hard on have obviously never been at the other end of stick. It is hard to see you hard work stolen, and people blame and criticize you for them stealing your ideas.

The purpose of showing my baby WAS to make you FEEL something. The truth is, that despite the fact some of you claim exposure is okay, it actually hurts real people trying to make a living. Magic is to create wonder, but if a trick is created (Yes you can create a trick as people throughout history have shown is true), then you should have a right to use your creation to not only, provide enjoyment to people but provide income for your family to further the pursuit of the next illusion, and the next after that.

Creators probably stay away from exposure sites (Which right now this one is) because it is hard to see all the hours of work and years of their life trampled upon by people who seem to not care, and sometimes to be heartless.

I have been insulted already and mocked, but you know what? Magic is worth it. I believe in a world where people respect each other and will decide to protect there brother and sister magicians instead of expose them to a world of people seeking to use them for their next "Secret fix". it can happen and you can help it happen simply by deciding to.:)
-Matt Sconce

Umm I got a question how did you find this site?

[MattSconce]

Umm I got a question how did you find this site?

I was informed by Paper Crane that an exposure site was talking about Power Word: Fall. I decided to drop by.

-Matt Sconce

[Dontavius Roivas]

Umm I got a question how did you find this site?

I asked him the same question and he never answered, and I asked papercrane...hmmm..

[MattSconce]

I asked him the same question and he never answered, and I asked papercrane...hmmm..
I was informed by Paper Crane that an exposure site was talking about Power Word: Fall. I decided to drop by.

-Matt Sconce

See above. :) -Matt Sconce

[Dontavius Roivas]

See above. :) -Matt Sconce

Oh, I see..do you know how papercrane found out about this place? Because papercrane and I were dropping some pm's to each other and I asked Shaun (papercrane) how he found this place and he never responded.

[A.C.E]

Okay I've got some points to make, matt.
1. This isn't piracy, please stop calling it that. Piracy is(well, I assume your talking about software piracy, dvd's, downloads, etc): "Software piracy is the illegal copying, distribution, or use of software." (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci213592,00.html)

2. I know this isn't anything you can help, but it's something that is a reality: magic dvd's/downloads are way over-priced. Well, a majority of the time at least. Why would somebody want to pay $30.00 (not saying this is what your selling "fall" for, but im just generalizing) for an effect that is pretty good, but 10-20 dollars over priced? This I think is the main reason for exposure, because who wants to over pay for something thats not worth what they're paying?

3. Now, I get that you WILL lose money on "fall", and I'm sorry but theres nothing you/me/anyone can do about it. But, this trick can't be your only revenue, if you create a magic effect, generally your a magician(who probably performs and makes money off of that as well). PEOPLE CAN AND DO MAKE LIVING OFF OF MAGIC( performing I meen) . Look at Magick, I don't know what he makes off magic (not really my business either), but he's obviously doing well enough, he has a house/apartment(I dont know which), a wife, and a magical beard. He obviously is making enough to support him and his family, on performing magic alone.

4. I do agree with you that exposing magic has kind of ruined it a bit, and that it is wrong to a certain extent (exampl:Trading tricks with someone is generally the same thng, you just both expose something to each other), but don't group it with piracy; piracy is illegal, and is not allowed on this site. Imedialty listing everyone that has exposed a trick as a theif/pirate-er is rash and somewhat insulting.

[Dontavius Roivas]

Okay I've got some points to make, matt.
1. This isn't piracy, please stop calling it that. Piracy is(well, I assume your talking about software piracy, dvd's, downloads, etc): "Software piracy is the illegal copying, distribution, or use of software." (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci213592,00.html)

2. I know this isn't anything you can help, but it's something that is a reality: magic dvd's/downloads are way over-priced. Well, a majority of the time at least. Why would somebody want to pay $30.00 (not saying this is what your selling "fall" for, but im just generalizing) for an effect that is pretty good, but 10-20 dollars over priced? This I think is the main reason for exposure, because who wants to over pay for something thats not worth what they're paying?

3. Now, I get that you WILL lose money on "fall", and I'm sorry but theres nothing you/me/anyone can do about it. But, this trick can't be your only revenue, if you create a magic effect, generally your a magician(who probably performs and makes money off of that as well). PEOPLE CAN AND DO MAKE LIVING OFF OF MAGIC( performing I meen) . Look at Magick, I don't know what he makes off magic (not really my business either), but he's obviously doing well enough, he has a house/apartment(I dont know which), a wife, and a magical beard. He obviously is making enough to support him and his family, on performing magic alone.

4. I do agree with you that exposing magic has kind of ruined it a bit, and that it is wrong to a certain extent (exampl:Trading tricks with someone is generally the same thng, you just both expose something to each other), but don't group it with piracy; piracy is illegal, and is not allowed on this site. Imedialty listing everyone that has exposed a trick as a theif/pirate-er is rash and somewhat insulting.

You made all the right points, thats what I and others been trying to tell this guy, great job ace!!

[MattSconce]

They most likely found it by searching for Magic/exposure sites or "learn free tricks" on google. They were probably checking to see if their tricks were being exposed.

I just watched some videos by David Castle for the first time. He is the person in charge of this site is exposing and "Revealing" all over the place. This website is designed for that purpose. He is a magician as well but seems to show no respect for the secrets and methods that allowed him to get where he is today. Exposure hurts real people and families and he not only is creating videos which do that very thing, but created a website where people do it my the boatload. Wow.

This website makes him money through advertising and he exposes fellow magicians hard work for his gain.

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/advertise.html

I had no idea it went this deep. :(

-Matt Sconce

[Dontavius Roivas]

They most likely found it by searching for Magic/exposure sites or "learn free tricks" on google. They were probably checking to see if their tricks were being exposed.

I just watched some videos by David Castle for the first time. He is the person in charge of this site is exposing and "Revealing" all over the place. This website is designed for that purpose. He is a magician as well but seems to show no respect for the secrets and methods that allowed him to get where he is today. Exposure hurts real people and families and he not only is creating videos which do that very thing, but created a website where people do it my the boatload. Wow.

This website makes him money through advertising and he exposes fellow magicians hard work for his gain.

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/advertise.html

I had no idea it went this deep. :(

-Matt Sconce


READ what A.C.E wrote.

[Dontavius Roivas]

They most likely found it by searching for Magic/exposure sites or "learn free tricks" on google. They were probably checking to see if their tricks were being exposed.

I just watched some videos by David Castle for the first time. He is the person in charge of this site is exposing and "Revealing" all over the place. This website is designed for that purpose. He is a magician as well but seems to show no respect for the secrets and methods that allowed him to get where he is today. Exposure hurts real people and families and he not only is creating videos which do that very thing, but created a website where people do it my the boatload. Wow.

This website makes him money through advertising and he exposes fellow magicians hard work for his gain.

http://www.learnmagictricks.org/advertise.html

I had no idea it went this deep. :(

-Matt Sconce


This website is for learning and expanding the magic community, not about making money, thats what you seem to want to make money some people dont have money to buy this expensive trick, that is expensive to some people, and this site is made to expand the magic world okay? We want people to come and learn and practice and bring entertaiment and greatness to our community, magic is something to enjoy for what it is. Some people dont have the price to pay so they come here, and also its not the exact copy of the trick, its someone teaching someone else how its done. You cant stop that, its freedom of speech, its not piracy.

[MattSconce]

Okay I've got some points to make, matt.
1. This isn't piracy, please stop calling it that. .

1. Piracy is the duplication and or distribution of something that it not your intellectual property, even without financial gain.

Exposure duplicates and distributes intellectual property (because it does not physically create a DVD show a movie does not mean it is not piracy)

Therefore exposure is a form of piracy. Regardless of how the website defines it, Piracy hurts the creator of an idea, movie, or story, and exposure does the exact same thing.

2. I know this isn't anything you can help, but it's something that is a reality: magic dvd's/downloads are way over-priced. Well, a majority of the time at least. Why would somebody want to pay $30.00 (not saying this is what your selling "fall" for, but im just generalizing) for an effect that is pretty good, but 10-20 dollars over priced? This I think is the main reason for exposure, because who wants to over pay for something thats not worth what they're paying?.

2. Using your same argument I say we should start stealing PS3 games. They are way overpriced. Why shouldn't we just get our friend to burn it for us, because we do not want to pay the listed price....Um...because it is wrong to do that morally, ethically and hurts the creator of the game financially.

3. Now, I get that you WILL lose money on "fall", and I'm sorry but theres nothing you/me/anyone can do about it. .

3. It sounds like you have given up already. What do you mean there is nothing anyone can do about it? I am here attempting to influence attitude change. The reason you cannot change it is because of people like you, who claim it is the way it always be and tear down people actually trying to make a difference. Performing magic does not support the majority of people doing it. Many of them must have side jobs. Some of the side jobs are "Creating Magic Effects," and are then undermined by places like this.

4...but don't group it with piracy; piracy is illegal, and is not allowed on this site. Imedialty listing everyone that has exposed a trick as a theif/pirate-er is rash and somewhat insulting.

4. I am glad you do not want to be labeled a pirate and that you find it insulting because maybe it will cause people to think. As I explained in the first point, you are doing the exact same thing with the exact same hurting impact as pirating DVDs or PS3 games, yet because of the technicality that you can claim it is not illegal, you say it is right to do. And the most horrible part is this, the person and people you are sucking the life out of are the very people attempting to create more powerful illusion for YOU.
-Matt Sconce

[Dontavius Roivas]

Read above ^

[MattSconce]

Read above ^
I wrote the above post and believe there are strong points within it.
-Matt Sconce

[citrusjrb]

1. Piracy is the duplication and or distribution of something that it not your intellectual property, even without financial gain.

Exposure duplicates and distributes intellectual property (because it does not physically create a DVD show a movie does not mean it is not piracy)

Therefore exposure is a form of piracy. Regardless of how the website defines it, Piracy hurts the creator of an idea, movie, or story, and exposure does the exact same thing.



2. Using your same argument I say we should start stealing PS3 games. They are way overpriced. Why shouldn't we just get our friend to burn it for us, because we do not want to pay the listed price....Um...because it is wrong to do that morally, ethically and hurts the creator of the game financially.



3. It sounds like you have given up already. What do you mean there is nothing anyone can do about it? I am here attempting to influence attitude change. The reason you cannot change it is because of people like you, who claim it is the way it always be and tear down people actually trying to make a difference. Performing magic does not support the majority of people doing it. Many of them must have side jobs. Some of the side jobs are "Creating Magic Effects," and are then undermined by places like this.



4. I am glad you do not want to be labeled a pirate and that you find it insulting because maybe it will cause people to think. As I explained in the first point, you are doing the exact same thing with the exact same hurting impact as pirating DVDs or PS3 games, yet because of the technicality that you can claim it is not illegal, you say it is right to do. And the most horrible part is this, the person and people you are sucking the life out of are the very people attempting to create more powerful illusion for YOU.
-Matt Sconce

Not sure if I am right but you arent really duplicating it if you make it in your own words or tutorial. are you???

[icdabrs]

1. Piracy is the duplication and or distribution of something that it not your intellectual property, even without financial gain.

Exposure duplicates and distributes intellectual property (because it does not physically create a DVD show a movie does not mean it is not piracy)

Therefore exposure is a form of piracy. Regardless of how the website defines it, Piracy hurts the creator of an idea, movie, or story, and exposure does the exact same thing.


-Matt Sconce

Exposure does NOT duplicate anything, it visually or in written form, paraphrases it. Completely different. Soryy to say, but someone posting a tutorial THEY made based on your teaching is NOT piracy. That is like trying to call paraphrasing the same thing as plagiarism. It just doesn't work that way. Sorry to break it to you. And I doubt your family is anything from starving. I saw your house in the back of one of those photos. So shutup, quit bitching and go get a real job as your steady income. I have a wife and a ten-month old daughter named October Rose, and a newborn son, named Conor Jonathan. I don't let Conor and October go hungry because I work a REAL job in between magic gigs. I perform magic and I also cook and manage at Primanti Brothers (Pittsburgh restaurant). And at that, I am only 20 years old! Why would you rely on an unsteady income as your only income? That just makes you stupid. Especially with the economy the way it is.

[ntroberts]

I understand where you're coming from Matt. Yes, these are constructed arguments, and we are all guilty of the moral wrong that is exposure of secrets. We can justify it all we want, but in the end, it's still one magician's hard work "lost" because of exposure.

To some extent, I agree. However, as can be implied from the emphasis on "lost", I also disagree with some points. Sadly, the way I see it, it boils down to a question of money and not so much love of the art. Why? Let me explain:

We come here to freely discuss magic tricks. We want to know how it's done, we want to try improving on it, we want to dissect, tinker with it. We can't stand poor performances. Ask the regular members here and most of us agree that the exposure/performance vids on the home site are utter crap. We critique each others' performance videos, and encourage others when they come up of their own tricks, even. However, we want to do it free of restrictions brought about by threat of exposure. I've lost count how many times people cannot discuss or criticize properly because of fear of exposure in other sites. It's annoying how you must say this but refrain from saying that. I feel it's what hinders healthy constructive discussions. We do it for the love of the art.

Granted there are a lot tricks out there that are either bad, or just don't fit your style. Unfortunately, reviews can only tell you so much. Exposure allows you to know and evaluate the mechanics of a trick to see if it's alright for you. Seeing an effect demonstrated well is often a poor reflection of usability. You only have to head over the The Magic Cafe's "Worst Trick you ever bought" thread to see all the disgruntled magicians. Of course, that's granting the exposure is within people who do take the art seriously and not just in it for the secret.

Stealing a car to know if you'll like it isn't right, but let's look at the comparisons again. Magic is a secretive art. While you can test drive a car, you can't "try out" a trick to see if you'll like it. That's what puts magic in a class of it's own. Cars and other physical properties are poor analogies. If there's a closer analogy, it's digital music. Yes, digital music. The ease with which to duplicate them mirror the ease of sharing the secret of magic. I won't elaborate any more as it's another can of worms, but a quick look at the music industry shows that it's not really going down. Perhaps the traditional record companies yes, but music itself is alive more than ever.

I'm sure that the serious magicians here don't go to Youtube and expose magical methods in the comments just to look cool. If you notice, when someone asks for a method in the Request a Secret section, we give the gist of the effect but we won't go into every little detail. It's assumed that as a magician, you'd have to know those things. That's because we understand that there are hacks out there that just want to know the secret, period. We care about not letting laymen know the secrets. That's we we always tell others to never reveal the names. Contrary to popular accusations, we don't enjoy trampling on other people's work. Release a crap product, and you're practically begging for it. But release a decent one, then we appreciate it. Is intelligently discussing the secret wrong? I guess only when we didn't pay for it, right?

Which brings us back to the money part... why do magicians market effects? To make money of course, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, what strikes me as odd is that it's mass marketed in the way it is right now. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can buy a trick just like that. Yes, even non magicians. Now of course, people will argue that non magicians won't bother buying tricks just to know how they're done. Maybe they don't but maybe they do. In mass marketing effects, do you care if the people who buy the tricks are real magicians and not the aforementioned hacks? While ethically it might matter, it seems it's just a matter of the bottom line. So on one hand, we have people discussing and criticizing a secret they didn't buy and are judged as wrong, while on the other hand, hacks who eat up the products are judged as right because the hacks paid for it.

While I seem to be walking into a fallacy of excluded middle, let's go back the the one accusation... that of lost sales. Sales are lost because of exposure. Ask yourselves... who are the people who don't buy the trick because of exposure?

A. Professional magicians? But they make money, and they can't risk a half baked presentation, nor get risk getting caught.

B. The hobbyists? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. If the hobbyist can't afford it, then it's a lost sale anyway. It's similar to the MP3 argument; It's a lost sale so they shouldn't benefit from it. True, that's the ethically questionable part, but at the same time, by insisting on it, it only serves to show that it's more a question of money than appreciation of the art.

C. The hacks who just want to know how it's done. I think we agree that a lost sale on them is of no consequence. Would you really want to make money knowing that that money came from someone who disrespects the art?

Does exposure really kill the art? People still watch performances of old tricks revealed many times over. But people either forget, or still enjoy nonetheless. It's the performance, more than the secret. But I'm sure the real magicians already know that.

So what is it really? Is it for the art, or for the money?

P.S. No I'm not accusing you or anybody of being greedy and thinking of only making a buck. I'd just like to defend those who expose and discuss here as well as criticize the all too oftenly decried "lost sales" and "need to feed my family" arguments. Yes they're perfectly valid, but do we really understand what we mean when we say that?

[MattSconce]

Not sure if I am right but you arent really duplicating it if you make it in your own words or tutorial. are you???

Legally no. Ethincally, you are choosing to exploit someone and their work. Your call.

[MattSconce]

Exposure does NOT duplicate anything, it visually or in written form, paraphrases it. Completely different. Soryy to say, but someone posting a tutorial THEY made based on your teaching is NOT piracy. That is like trying to call paraphrasing the same thing as plagiarism. It just doesn't work that way. Sorry to break it to you. And I doubt your family is anything from starving. I saw your house in the back of one of those photos. So shutup, quit bitching and go get a real job as your steady income. I have a wife and a ten-month old daughter named October Rose, and a newborn son, named Conor Jonathan. I don't let Conor and October go hungry because I work a REAL job in between magic gigs. I perform magic and I also cook and manage at Primanti Brothers (Pittsburgh restaurant). And at that, I am only 20 years old! Why would you rely on an unsteady income as your only income? That just makes you stupid. Especially with the economy the way it is.

Read, this and see how many times I am mocked and insulted. This is the way people exposing others secrets treat people that are asking them to stop, and respect the work they have done, or at least, not exploit them.
-Matt Sconce

[icdabrs]

Legally no. Ethincally, you are choosing to exploit someone and their work. Your call.

Firstly.... ethnically? Lol.

Secondly... Like I said... That's like calling paraphrasing plagiarism.


And moreover. NO ONE HAS EXPLOITED YOUR WORK ON HERE. So shut it, you do-goody twat.

[Dontavius Roivas]

Read, this and see how many times I am mocked and insulted. This is the way people exposing others secrets treat people that are asking them to stop, and respect the work they have done, or at least, not exploit them.
-Matt Sconce

There is no arguing with you, we are not doing anything illegal, this is a learning website and your not going to stop it, there are thousands of these websites out here so try your best. We arnt doing anything illegal as I said before so theres nothing you can tell us not to do, what we are doing is fine and we're going to keep doing to grow the community. And we havnt done anything to you, so you're wasting your time.
You keep what you think is right, and we will keep what we think is right.

[MattSconce]

ntroberts,
You make some good points. I think the one thing people who expose who are upset about mass marketing do not understand i 'Investment in a secret".
If you have paid money for something, it is usually more valuable to you. For instance. if someone gave you a computer and you spilled soda on it-Bummer. if you save for a year to buy the computer and you did the same-Horrific.

If tricks are taught for free and the makers exploited, then the people learning them have no investment in keeping the secret of the trick. If they had to save to buy the trick, (Which someone released so they could), then they have an investment. They are kind of an owner of the trick, a keeper of its secrets and mysteries. Do you see why exposure could cause the widspread devaluation of magic based on this reasoning?
-Matt Sconce

[icdabrs]

There is no arguing with you, we are not doing anything illegal, this is a learning website and your not going to stop it, there are thousands of these websites out here so try your best. We arnt doing anything illegal as I said before so theres nothing you can tell us not to do, what we are doing is fine and we're going to keep doing to grow the community. And we havnt done anything to you, so you're wasting your time.
You keep what you think is right, and we will keep what we think is right.

Exactly, he is looking at the subject through a microscope instead of seeing the whole thing.

[ntroberts]

There is no arguing with you, we are not doing anything illegal, this is a learning website and your not going to stop it, there are thousands of these websites out here so try your best. We arnt doing anything illegal as I said before so theres nothing you can tell us not to do, what we are doing is fine and we're going to keep doing to grow the community. And we havnt done anything to you, so you're wasting your time.
You keep what you think is right, and we will keep what we think is right.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[icdabrs]

Sorry to double post, but I'm serious about my family. I manage to take care of my family of four on my magic gigs and my steady job. And I don't even have to mass market 30 dollar DVDs to do it! So for the love of the art, go get a few gigs and perform what you teach for 30 bucks a pop. And if sall was for the love of the art... you would only price it high enough to pay for the production costs.

My friends and I had a band in high school, we loved the music and that's why we did it, and since it was all for the love of the art we sold our cd's at what it cost us to make them... somewhere around $1.30.

[MattSconce]

And moreover. NO ONE HAS EXPLOITED YOUR WORK ON HERE. So shut it, you do-goody twat.

Are you saying that if someone did exploit my work, I have a right to talk, but because they did not, I should let people exploit others? If so, then I must disagree. Instead of insulting people, I seek to shine light on a practice that is damaging the community. I want the magic community to grow, and not be undermined. When people have nothing left to say, they resort to personal attacks.
-Matt Sconce

[icdabrs]

Are you saying that if someone did exploit my work, I have a right to talk, but because they did not, I should let people exploit others? If so, then I must disagree. Instead of insulting people, I seek to shine light on a practice that is damaging the community. I want the magic community to grow, and not be undermined. When people have nothing left to say, they resort to personal attacks.
-Matt Sconce


Ok then let's shine a huge goddamn light on a practice that damages the community....

How much are the production costs of your little effect?

And you want 30 dollars for how long of a video?

I can buy the whole Lord of the Rings Trilogy for a little over thirty dollars... and I am sure their production cost is higher and I would get 10 hours of film for my money.

So let's shine a light. Give me a number.

You go trying to guilt trip people with your daughter, so that you can make more money. And you act like I am doing something wrong.

You came on here rattling off about YOUR effect and YOU losing money, so don't pretend you were being a superhero to all magicians in the marketplace.

[MattSconce]

There is no arguing with you, we are not doing anything illegal, this is a learning website and your not going to stop it, there are thousands of these websites out here so try your best. We arnt doing anything illegal as I said before so theres nothing you can tell us not to do, what we are doing is fine and we're going to keep doing to grow the community. And we havnt done anything to you, so you're wasting your time.
You keep what you think is right, and we will keep what we think is right.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

If someone has seen injustice occuring somewhere, and it does not affect them personally, should they try to help stop it, or mind their own business?

[citrusjrb]

I would rather spend 30 dollars on muliplte effects than just 1.

[ntroberts]

Making people value the secret because of what they paid for it works, and is standard mainstream practice, yes. However, curiously, it also hinders healthy discussion, which is exactly what we're advocate here.

I'm not anti-capitalistically decrying mass marketing of magic. I'm not upset about it. What I'm upset about is when it becomes more an issue of money than it is of the art. Like icdabrs paradigm, if I make a trick and sell it, I wouldn't mind if some people, especially those who can't afford it, to take it and use it, and hopefully develop with it. Not paying for a secret devalues it only for those who don't take magic seriously.

So thus I think a more important issue here is that those who don't take magic seriously can come here and learn. If this were a more controlled place, would you think differently about it?

[MattSconce]

Ok then let's shine a huge goddamn light on a practice that damages the community....

How much are the production costs of your little effect?

And you want 30 dollars for how long of a video?

I can buy the whole Lord of the Rings Trilogy for a little over thirty dollars... and I am sure their production cost is higher and I would get 10 hours of film for my money.

So let's shine a light. Give me a number.


You mistakenly are attempting to put the price of a DVD on production cost alone, when in reality the price of a released effect is the worth of the secret method the practicioner developed, the quality of the DVD, and the personal attention the person gives you as a buyer of the effect. The LOTR gives you entertainment but a Magic DVD teaches you a skill that can make you money.



I will give you a peak into the production of Power Word: Fall. For power word Fall, I worked on the DVD for 2 weeks at about 5-7 hours a day. Lets say 5 to underestimate.

The going rate for the video work in Fresno, CA (Where I live) is 100/hr. 5 times 14days is 70hrs times 100 is: 7000.00, Simply for production of the actual content.
The DVD cover art took me about 3 days at about 2 hours a day. lets cut down the cost now to 50/hr for print work here: 6hrs times 50 = 300.
Now lets talk intellectual property. I am going to absolutely skip that part, because it seems no one here values it.
Lets move onto duplication. 1000 DVDs at 700.00. Print work for all 1000 DVDs another 700.00.
I then created a website that is password protected which lets people have access to me to ask questions and see tips and tricks with Power Word Fall. I pay about 20.00 a month for that site. So one year of that will cost me 240.00.
I will even leave gimmick cost out of it. let's total this and see what you are getting for 29.95.

7000.00 of production time+ 300 for creating printwork+ 1400.00 for DVD duplication and printwork+240.00 for website help and tips (Not taking into account intellectual property right fees, copyrighting, or gimmick costs: and you have a total of 8940.00 worth of production. The DVD is 45 minutes and sells for a measly 29.95, and yet people still exploit it for free.

I hope some of you would see the problem of the devaluation of effects when this constantly occurs to creators of magic.

-Matt Sconce

[MattSconce]

I would rather spend 30 dollars on muliplte effects than just 1.

I think that is true a lot of the time. With power word: Fall it is an effect with 6-7 applications. But, even if you would rather buy a book for 30.00 with many tricks inside, does that give you the right to exploit another's work?
-Matt Sconce

[MattSconce]

Making people value the secret because of what they paid for it works, and is standard mainstream practice, yes. However, curiously, it also hinders healthy discussion, which is exactly what we're advocate here.

I'm not anti-capitalistically decrying mass marketing of magic. I'm not upset about it. What I'm upset about is when it becomes more an issue of money than it is of the art. Like icdabrs paradigm, if I make a trick and sell it, I wouldn't mind if some people, especially those who can't afford it, to take it and use it, and hopefully develop with it. Not paying for a secret devalues it only for those who don't take magic seriously.

So thus I think a more important issue here is that those who don't take magic seriously can come here and learn. If this were a more controlled place, would you think differently about it?

I would argue that people who take magic seriously take fellow magicians seriously and their work, by saving for the effects they want. The people taking magic seriously are not the ones you will find exploiting tricks.

The control of a place does not change the fact exploitation of another's work would still occur, so I could not think differently about it. If the exposure stopped, then it would be a place friendly to the magic community.
-Matt Sconce

[papercrane]

I have not read all of the posts but I did see that someone asked about how I found out about this place. I was contacted by a magician who contacted every major magic company in the business. Alot of the big boys know about this site and I am trying to reach out to you guy and show that we are not these wealthy douchebag video producers who want to release things just to make money. I love the enthusiasm here and if you want I can see if I can arrange a Q & A with B.smith and Dan Hauss on this site. Look the magic World is very small and it is hard to do something with out people knowing it, people are taking notice of what is going on on ths site. Again it is not only about the money for me it is the love of the art. Let me ask you this do you think that the owner of this site des this for the love of magic or the love of money?

[MattSconce]

Well, I am going to go now. In leaving these forums, I will just wish you all the best and leave with the hope that others out there will see that exposure only hurts the furthering of magic in the long run and hurts real people like my family and I. It cannot be enforced by law, and so as a creator of a magic effect, I simpy ask you to think twice before exploiting anothers work. That is all I can do. I will continue to do so, and may be back someday, but for now I will go work on my next illusion and go back to communities where magicians still support eachother and build each other up in the art instead of tearing each other down. I care about the magic community and each of you by default. I want each magician to become all he/she can be and bring moments of wonder to others that allow them see that childhood magic one more time. Good luck in your endeavors, and thank you for humoring a new creator of magic.

Finally my last trick: Levitating a Baby. ;-)
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v313/169/92/1035213530/n1035213530_128771_3066.jpg



Sincerely, Matt Sconce

[traumatised-magic]

ok heres my thoughts on this matter.

1, piracy and exposure are similar but not the same, exposure is like tellin someone how soemhtin is done, i could walk down the street after watchin ur dvd and explain to someoen how the trick is done does that make it piracy??
of course not piracy is a physical thing exposure is not.

2. u cant say we have stolen from u if ur trick is not even out yet and sayin that u cannot even own a trick, u may have invented ur way of presenting the trick but unless u have created a new sleight of hand that no one has ever doen before or no one has eveer done anythin remotly similar to it then u cannot say u create the trick u just created the presentation for the trick, the only thing u can actually say u own in regards to this trick are the media they are put on. eg dvds. if i came to ur house and stole a master copy then fair enough or if i pirated the whole film form somewhere then maybe, but discussin how a trick is done on an open forum is not even close to stealing.

would u say i was stealin from u if we decided to not talk about it on the internet instead we sat around a physical table and decided to work it out amongst ourselves??

ur arguments are ridiculous, u cannot stop people talkin about ur trick. if its good enough to buy then people will buy it if its easy enouhg to figure it out by watchin the preview video then whats the point in speandin my money on the video when i can easily watch a 20 second clip and know how its done. that to me just seems stupid, i'm not gonna pay form somehtin if i already knoe how its done just cause u want to make money. thats like askin me if i know hoe ur tricks are done after watchin u perform live and then chargin me cause i figured them out,

[papercrane]

I will never convince any of you to stop, but can you honestly say that you would not be hurt if someone exposed an illusion of yours that you worked hard lets say that it was a super commercial idea that everybody did and you really didnt earn anything from it because people got it for free. I think you would be pretty pissed.

[ntroberts]

So I guess it IS about the money then? I'd be pissed if money-making performers used it without paying for it, yes, but that's about it.

If you're going to reply to this, please read my lengthy post first.

[papercrane]

I think if you look at the vids on our site you will see that we take adifferent approach than other companies out there and we strive to have high artistic value. It only becomes about money when you are in danger of not making your investment back. Who would want to lose money on something? We are doing good and again I am not here to preach I am here to make friends. I want to be available to you guys so that someone can reach and teach. hanfully I had someone who did it for me when I was younger,

[sonny]

So I guess it IS about the money then? I'd be pissed if money-making performers used it without paying for it, yes, but that's about it.

If you're going to reply to this, please read my lengthy post first.


Yup its true... most sites on the internet selling magic = Trying to make money.


-Sigh- If only someone had the balls ... to create a site dedicated to get new magicians to come out of the shadows.


The only reason Matt came here is to tell us to stop exposing/piracy.


People we are having an inflation in the world right now.


Gas prices are crazy.


If we cant get along with people

we are going to die/be alone.


If we have to buy tricks to feed you hungry magicicans out there

like matt or any magicicians selling their tricks on top sites like E,Penquin,

magic makers,MJM.



We're gonna die ok? Some people don't even have enough money to buy tricks not even to feed their family.


But they still contribute to doing magic because its their hobby/favorite job




Get along people... if the prices on these expensive or useless unpracticle tricks

were lowered then you wouldn't have to worry about people jacking your dam tricks ok? Matt and papercrane.



Damn .. i keep having to make these rants to you Magicians coming on this site and complaining when you Don't even know whats causing it.

[Hoax]

Yeah as you said and what they said, he is trying to stop exposing a trick that hasnt been released yet, but thats impossible. There is always going to be people trying to figure how a certain trick is done, thats the point of magic trying to see how something is done. And if someone has a idea and its a public forum they have all rights to put down there thoughts on here. People will always try to figure out how something is done its natural, its human nature.

That is the whole point with this site. Exposing other peoples tricks so we could learn them.. And if you want to go to level 2, go to neo:)

[papercrane]

Sonny, how much should a DVD cost? How is the secret worth to you? Think the things that you perfor alot and put a value on those things. Straight answers please to all of those. If the prices were lower there would still be these sites again I am not trying to stop what is going on here. I am trying to add some truth to this website.

[buzzemann]

Sonny, how much should a DVD cost? How is the secret worth to you? Think the things that you perfor alot and put a value on those things.

They are worth a lot for me, and it was a pleasure to buy them... Nevertheless i also blew loads money away for thinks that looked good in the preview but soon after spending a lot of money turned out, the previews were produced fantastic, but the whole thing itself wasn´t worth it... So I am happy with sites like this, because I can check if a trick is worth the money BEEFORE wasting money... as I said: every little thing I use every performance, I bought, because I liked it ! and I rebuilt some of the things that didn´t fit in my style and look...

and this has been said here so often, but you still don´t seem to get the point: this is a Forum for magicians and people that want to learn magic... If they buy a trick and meet on a magicians club ( sitting on a table ) and talk about it, or if they meet on the internet and talk about it... magic will be shared as it was shared for centuries...

Oh, and for me: a Magic DVD should not cost much more than it´s production costs ( plus a little donation for the production Team and performer plus the gimmick, if one is needed, because it sure is NOT a Hollywood Blockbuster that is brought to movie theaters, but its ART, and Arts has to be loved by its creator and those that consume it,and its not arts like a van gogh or picasso ), that means: nowadays the production process is much easier than a few years ago, with the help of Digital editing, and as you know, even hobbyists can make astonishing Films and DVDs for a small production cost... so the prize should bring in production process and a little plus, but not the big money... and I do not say that you or Matt want to make the big money out of it, on this special item the price of ~30 Bucks is okay, If the Trick is okay... lets be honest: after buying, how often do you watch a magic DVD ? its not like a normal movie that you watch again and again: you watch iit, till you got it done correct and then...collect it or sell it used...

would it be a problem for you, if someone bought your trick and posted a thread here like:

I bought it, i can do it, i resell it used for a dollar ? ( shure you wouldn´t mind, you already sold it for +30 ), but if the one that bought it used, would again resell it, for 10ct... and the next for 5ct... you would make 30 Dollars once, but it would nevertheless spread and you wouldn´t earn on the next copy and the copy after that... so again you would lose 3 customers and the secret would be spread...

Another thought:
I once spended 40 Euros for a raven, with a little instruction sheet ( because the reseller wanted to maximise his earn he just added a BAD instruction )... and again 40 Euros for a Video that really taught how me to use it correctly... then I saw a vid. of the Gecko and thougth: wow, this is so much better than my raven... If I hadn´t checked forums like this, I would sure have spend a lot of money again for a thing, that is if you exaggerate a little, just a Raven with sticky dots instead of a magnet... and I would have bought another vid, to find out the hookup is sleightly different... that wouldn´t make sense for me, because it would be like buying the same thing ( overpriced, but that is a problem that I had with the local dealer, I switched immediately after finding out what a rip off he does with his customers ) twice... where my new dealers know I´m magician and let me test and see the stuff I wanna buy ( thats also exposure in one way ) but that is in my opinion customer service... and they don´t mind if I don´t buy sth when I see it does not fit me... because they know, that I buy other things that I like... and on the internet, after just watching a video preview its always hard to find out, if something is your style, because in every preview the tricks are presented perfectly... so forums like this are a good way to check if stuff that is sold on the net is Okay... and as I come from Germany: some things aren´t available here locally sometimes, and even some stuff is NEVER available, because ( like a trick, flammendes inferno or sth.. like that: you take aluminium foil, curl it up and in specs hand it gets damn hot, I don´t know how its english name is ) it uses chemicals that are ILLEGAL here... nevertheless I have it, because I found out how it works and could get some of the stuff that makes it possible on other ways... without exposure I still would dream of it ( and have nitemares because I could not gt it legaly ) ;)

[sonny]

Sonny, how much should a DVD cost? How is the secret worth to you? Think the things that you perfor alot and put a value on those things. Straight answers please to all of those. If the prices were lower there would still be these sites again I am not trying to stop what is going on here. I am trying to add some truth to this website.


Well.. with the inflation going on today anyway nothing would be in my budget except cards.


With DVDs going for 30 dollars and up many people would have to go low as to trying to get them for free on magic sites like this one.



Oh and if prices were lower ... these sites would be up for discussing stuff.


There wont be any piracy if the DVD's are less of price.


i mean come on man 30 dollars to learn how to hide a coin for bullet CTB.


That trick IMO should be at least 10 dollars.


It aint worth 30 dollars.




Dvds like Bullet should be lowered.




Yeh But matt he created a DVD which is not even out yet....


he complains to us that we're pirating.


We're discussing, we're trying to come up with a method,

isnt that what magic is about?


amazing people and creating your own tricks/methods?



Its alright to buy DVD's but


On the Market's Terms - Penquin, E,Any magic site,


the prices are TOO high ok?


The Higher the price = Doesnt mean its a good trick


Higher prices discourages people to buy tricks.


Unless they're like rich or something.





Part of the piracy are created by the magic seller's Expensive prices.


I know that you have to feed your family and things but ..


with inflation the only way to get around buying magic is piracy.


Sorry, 20% of piracy is caused by Magic forums like AOMK or Neomagician that does have piracy.50% is by spoiled kids who buy the trick and don't even know how to do it properly and then reveals it on youtube,30% goes to
Magic sellers because the prices people we be discouraged in buying and resort to piracy.




Well if theres anything wrong in here im sorry im tired.



its 6:34 in the morning.

[ntroberts]

this is a Forum for magicians and people that want to learn magic... If they buy a trick and meet on a magicians club ( sitting on a table ) and talk about it, or if they meet on the internet and talk about it...

Another thought: (snipped for brevity)

Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind. This is also why I asked Matt if it would've mattered differently if this place was much more controlled, meaning, the place had better assurance that only those really into magic can get in. I know magic is based on secrets, but I can't stand it when secrets get in the way of creative discussion.


Well if theres anything wrong in here im sorry im tired.


Well, for one thing, it'd be interesting to see where your data and statistics came from. :)

I know you're on our side, but without references, it invites a lot of hole for attack. :)

[papercrane]

Good morning sonny, ok let me give you a few examples and you can answe with what you think the value of the trick/dvd is.
Torn sells for 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Factory Sealed sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Easy to master card miracles by Michael Ammar sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Power word fall also comes with a gimmick and it sells for 29.95 how much is it worth?
At what price point would you say that you would pay and not get the secret for free.
Let me leave you guys with this and it will be some great advice to futher your magic. DONT BUY ANYTHING go into the world and look at the world you live in. Try to find a place for your craft in that world and create. Dont worry about whats new or whats cool at E or theory11 just go out and Destroy. Just like Iggy pop and the Stooges search and destroy. Look it up on youtube its some really cool 1960's punk. When I go out and do magic for people they witness a true miracle and I didnt get that way from finding out the latest and greatest.

[ryutarotion]

Um...
if you don't want your material to be revealed.. then don't release or show it!
Like Armando Lucero!
dude i met this guy 1 on 1, had dinner wit him, you know how protective he was about his magic?
damn this guy didnt even let me record his routine!
he showed the best tricks!
his amazing coin matrix! i was 5 cm off of his hands and i cant still figure it out!
his syconicity , serendipidy and crap WAS AMAZING
And HE WILL NEVER SELL OR sHOW HIS TRICKS CAUSE HE IS A REAL MAGICIAN!
Magicians entertain audience members , not to just make money and have a happy life..
lucero ftw

[papercrane]

I predict my Question will go unanswered

[magick]

Good morning sonny, ok let me give you a few examples and you can answe with what you think the value of the trick/dvd is.
Torn sells for 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Factory Sealed sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Easy to master card miracles by Michael Ammar sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Power word fall also comes with a gimmick and it sells for 29.95 how much is it worth?
At what price point would you say that you would pay and not get the secret for free.
Let me leave you guys with this and it will be some great advice to futher your magic. DONT BUY ANYTHING go into the world and look at the world you live in. Try to find a place for your craft in that world and create. Dont worry about whats new or whats cool at E or theory11 just go out and Destroy. Just like Iggy pop and the Stooges search and destroy. Look it up on youtube its some really cool 1960's punk. When I go out and do magic for people they witness a true miracle and I didnt get that way from finding out the latest and greatest.
well i intend to give you an answer.

first "TORN" is a fantastic piece of magic, and i bought it from danny directly at a convention. but it isn't original to danny....his handling bears a striking resemblance to a tnr by a british magician (wish i could remember the name)

"factory sealed" was not worth the money and would have been better placed in a set of lecture notes (for about 20 bucks) along with other material....and should have never been released as an individual effect.

"michael ammars card miracales", should have been priced much higher....not because of the material taught, rather, because of michaels high quality of teaching not only the effect but the lessons on performance and presentation that you also get.(a problem with many videos today....you get a great method, but no real lesson on how to present it effectively)

power word fall: i have know idea, i haven't bothered to watch the demo, so i have no idea if the effect has any value at all.

but on to the larger topic: theft of intellectual property....this is not a new problem(though the internet has made it a much more widespread one)

"the pen thru anything" was created and marketed by john cornelius...and as far as i know he never gave permission to anyone to copy it....yet there are more than a dozen incarnations of this effect....all with virtually the same method. these thefts were commited not by childern, but by other suposedly reputable magic dealers and builders....and i might add the the instructions don't even mention john originated the effect.

tommy wonder had similar problems with his "animated sphere"(i own an original signed by tommy) which soon was being knocked off by other magic companies. again with no thought of tommy.

the butterfly fold in daniel garcias "life" was created by robert neil and published in his origami book....but danny didnt bother to ask permission to publish it until after the dvd was already on the market(from the daniel garcia issue of magic magizine)

i could go on to site hundreds examples of this practice....but you get the idea.

i learned magic is it should be, from older, more advanced magicians... one on one....and along with these lessons, i learned magics rich history and respect for the art....you don't get that from a dvd.

now. companies like E and t11 are providing instant downloads of effects....which are easily downloaded, coppied and traded. that practice has truly added to the problem at hand. isn't it obvious that this practice invites the behavior we are talking about.

now we have a real problem in the magic community...but i don't think you can lay it at the feet of the young magicians of today....it's been escalating for many years. brought on by grow men who should have known better.

dana

[sonny]

Good morning sonny, ok let me give you a few examples and you can answe with what you think the value of the trick/dvd is.
Torn sells for 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Factory Sealed sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Easy to master card miracles by Michael Ammar sells from 30 to 35 how much is it worth?
Power word fall also comes with a gimmick and it sells for 29.95 how much is it worth?
At what price point would you say that you would pay and not get the secret for free.
Let me leave you guys with this and it will be some great advice to futher your magic. DONT BUY ANYTHING go into the world and look at the world you live in. Try to find a place for your craft in that world and create. Dont worry about whats new or whats cool at E or theory11 just go out and Destroy. Just like Iggy pop and the Stooges search and destroy. Look it up on youtube its some really cool 1960's punk. When I go out and do magic for people they witness a true miracle and I didnt get that way from finding out the latest and greatest.




I'd say Factory Sealed was a good concept for the hiding of the coin but is not worth it for 30 dollars + Shipping

I cant give you exact prices but ill tell you what i think.



For the trick Fall that matt created,

if it comes with a gimmick i'd pretty much say its like 15 = DVD 15 = gimmick

i never said his trick was expensive in the first place but

im talking about those tricks like bullet and factory sealed.

Hmm i've never bought or seen the explanation for Torn by DG

but if Magick would say its good i would too,

IMO if its not intirely his copyright trick like magick said i dont think it should be worth 30-35 bucks.


Easy to master card miracles = I've never heard/bought/
of it.


There you go ... i never said Fall was that expensive if it came with a gimmick.

Im talking about sites like E!

the only useful thing there is their decks.


IMO

[Gadfly71]

well i intend to give you an answer.

first "TORN" is a fantastic piece of magic, and i bought it from danny directly at a convention. but it isn't original to danny....his handling bears a striking resemblance to a tnr by a british magician (wish i could remember the name)

"factory sealed" was not worth the money and would have been better placed in a set of lecture notes (for about 20 bucks) along with other material....and should have never been released as an individual effect.

"michael ammars card miracales", should have been priced much higher....not because of the material taught, rather, because of michaels high quality of teaching not only the effect but the lessons on performance and presentation that you also get.(a problem with many videos today....you get a great method, but no real lesson on how to present it effectively)

power word fall: i have know idea, i haven't bothered to watch the demo, so i have no idea if the effect has any value at all.

but on to the larger topic: theft of intellectual property....this is not a new problem(though the internet has made it a much more widespread one)

"the pen thru anything" was created and marketed by john cornelius...and as far as i know he never gave permission to anyone to copy it....yet there are more than a dozen incarnations of this effect....all with virtually the same method. these thefts were commited not by childern, but by other suposedly reputable magic dealers and builders....and i might add the the instructions don't even mention john originated the effect.

tommy wonder had similar problems with his "animated sphere"(i own an original signed by tommy) which soon was being knocked off by other magic companies. again with no thought of tommy.

the butterfly fold in daniel garcias "life" was created by robert neil and published in his origami book....but danny didnt bother to ask permission to publish it until after the dvd was already on the market(from the daniel garcia issue of magic magizine)

i could go on to site hundreds examples of this practice....but you get the idea.

i learned magic is it should be, from older, more advanced magicians... one on one....and along with these lessons, i learned magics rich history and respect for the art....you don't get that from a dvd.

now. companies like E and t11 are providing instant downloads of effects....which are easily downloaded, coppied and traded. that practice has truly added to the problem at hand. isn't it obvious that this practice invites the behavior we are talking about.

now we have a real problem in the magic community...but i don't think you can lay it at the feet of the young magicians of today....it's been escalating for many years. brought on by grow men who should have known better.

dana VERY WELL SAID

[magick]

VERY WELL SAID

thank you...

[magick]

well i intend to give you an answer.

first "TORN" is a fantastic piece of magic, and i bought it from danny directly at a convention. but it isn't original to danny....his handling bears a striking resemblance to a tnr by a british magician (wish i could remember the name)

"factory sealed" was not worth the money and would have been better placed in a set of lecture notes (for about 20 bucks) along with other material....and should have never been released as an individual effect.

"michael ammars card miracales", should have been priced much higher....not because of the material taught, rather, because of michaels high quality of teaching not only the effect but the lessons on performance and presentation that you also get.(a problem with many videos today....you get a great method, but no real lesson on how to present it effectively)

power word fall: i have know idea, i haven't bothered to watch the demo, so i have no idea if the effect has any value at all.

but on to the larger topic: theft of intellectual property....this is not a new problem(though the internet has made it a much more widespread one)

"the pen thru anything" was created and marketed by john cornelius...and as far as i know he never gave permission to anyone to copy it....yet there are more than a dozen incarnations of this effect....all with virtually the same method. these thefts were commited not by childern, but by other suposedly reputable magic dealers and builders....and i might add the the instructions don't even mention john originated the effect.

tommy wonder had similar problems with his "animated sphere"(i own an original signed by tommy) which soon was being knocked off by other magic companies. again with no thought of tommy.

the butterfly fold in daniel garcias "life" was created by robert neil and published in his origami book....but danny didnt bother to ask permission to publish it until after the dvd was already on the market(from the daniel garcia issue of magic magizine)

i could go on to site hundreds examples of this practice....but you get the idea.

i learned magic is it should be, from older, more advanced magicians... one on one....and along with these lessons, i learned magics rich history and respect for the art....you don't get that from a dvd.

now. companies like E and t11 are providing instant downloads of effects....which are easily downloaded, coppied and traded. that practice has truly added to the problem at hand. isn't it obvious that this practice invites the behavior we are talking about.

now we have a real problem in the magic community...but i don't think you can lay it at the feet of the young magicians of today....it's been escalating for many years. brought on by grow men who should have known better.

dana

so, any other comments??? papercrane? anybody?